This is the lightly-edited AI generated transcript of Bitcoin Infinity Show #125. The transcription isn't perfect, but it's usually pretty good!
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Intro
Luke: Paolo, Mathias, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thank you for joining us.
Paolo: Thank you for having us.
Knut: Yeah, good to have you here, guys. We're going to talk a bit about Keet and Holepunch and a little bit about Tether today, aren't we?
Luke: Sounds like that's the plan. So thank you again, both for joining us.
Introducing Paolo and Mathias
Luke: would you both mind giving a quick introduction on yourselves just so our listeners have the background on you
Paolo: Sure, I'm Paolo Arduino, I'm the CEO at Tether. I started my career as a developer, I pivoted towards more, strategy and execution for, Tether and Bitfinex. And, co founded with Matthias, Holepunch, that is, building very, crazy and awesome technology, that is gonna be disrupting the way people communicate.
Luke: And, Mathias, over to you.
Mathias: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I've been, so I come from a peer-to-peer background. I've been working with peer-to-peer technology. The last, I always say five, but it's probably more like 10 years. I did a lot of work on BitTorrent and I did a lot of work on JavaScript. and a little bit later to, Bitcoin and I saw a lot of potential on how we can use Bitcoin with pureology and like how we can use.
P2P technology to bring the same mission that Bitcoin has, but to all kinds of data, setting all data free and, making everything private per default and self sovereignty and that kind of thing. I'm very into that. and I've been lucky to work with, like I said, with Paolo for, many years now and, Get a lot of, valuable, feedback and, idea sharing out of that.
And we're on a mission to, build some, really cool things. In addition to all the things we've already been building. So it's super exciting and glad to be here.
Luke: Oh, fantastic.
Introduction to Holepunch
Luke: Matthias, that was a perfect segue into basically, an introduction to, can you tell us about, Holepunch.
What is Holepunch and what are you doing?
Mathias: Yeah, sure. like I said, we co founded the company a couple of years ago. Now, we've been building up a team of really talented peer to peer engineers. we're always hiring also. So if anybody's listening and want to join our mission, please, apply. we have some really smart people working with us.
but we teamed up to basically. like I said in my introduction, I've been working on peer to peer technology for many years now and thinking ahead how we can, stop using all that technology when I started it was only used for basically piracy. I'm from the Nordics, and I think Knut is from the Nordics also, so he knows all about, the Nordics know about piracy.
It wasn't back in the day. A lot of very interesting technologies came out of that. But basically, how can we use those ideas that were proven by piracy back then to be really unstoppable, because a lot of people wanted to stop it, but apply that same kind of mindset to the general data, so we can build actual applications that has that kind of quality, that can withstand the wrath of God.
that can work without any centralization. Actually, nobody can shut down, not even the authorities if they wanted to. Basically unkillable and make that general enough that it can basically run any kind of application, solve a lot of really hot problems. it works on your own computers, your own networks.
Mobile phones, and tie that up. I'm a developer by heart, into a software stack that people can just build on. So not everybody has to go in and tackle all these problems individually, but just give them some software to solve all this so they can, as much as possible, just worry about making really cool applications that we use,
Yeah, like I said, we've been working really intensely on this, for a long time and in Holepunch, we made this our co mission to scale this up and, deliver a software stack on that. it's been really exciting and it's been really fun and it's been very, challenging, but if it's not challenging, then why, do it?
and, especially, with the backing of, Tether, through Paolo and also just expertise from there, we have a good hand built to deliver this to the world. And, the first thing we did was, like, think about what's, a good first application that we can build that can showcase this, but also something we really want to use ourself and see scale have also have on the world.
And obviously that was a communications app, keyed, which we was our first project. And, we're still in beta and we're still lots of work to do. And we're still iterating that really heavily, but I like to show that you can build these kind of apps without any kind of. central points. and we released that also, like the first thing we released when we launched the company.
And like I said, we're still, building and still iterating it. A lot of fun. and then take the software stack from that, which we call the pair runtime and then split that out. So anybody else can build similar apps on top. With that same technology stack, and, yeah, that's, we launched that earlier this year also, and, it's been really exciting so far, and it's, I love going to work every day and solve, even though, you can see on my hair that it's not really good for, the head scratching, but, but, it's really fun, and it's really challenging, and it's interesting thing. goal as a company, basically to have that if we go out of business tomorrow, our technology continues to exist because we're not in the loop of anything. It's also sometimes really hard to explain that we don't have any, chip coins involved or any kind of limitations on the stack because we're basically engineering it not to be part of it, because that's the only way you can actually engineer these things that they can understand.
anything, super exciting and, encourage everybody to try to check it out.
Luke: we've both used Keet and I've certainly enjoyed the experience. I, think, the, basics of this, as I understand it, is that it's, entirely on both sides. The communicators end, or a group of communicators, it's all on their end, and the communication is entirely peer to peer, what is Keet really, what is the basics of Keet as, say, a product?
What is the easiest way that you would explain what it is?
The Vision Behind Keet
Mathias: But We're basically trying to just build a world class communications app that works to a large degree, like normal communication apps that you know, like Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp. Just with all the centralization tucked away, with all the costs of running it tucked away, and then adding all the features that also we can, because we're peer to peer
People don't care about technology. We loved it, but don't have that surface off too much to the user.
Just have the user use it as any other app, but then just have it be 100 percent private per default, 100 percent like no strings attached. It just works. if we get caught off by a. From the internet tomorrow, it will still work, that kind of thing, but deliver that in a way, and this is always our mission where users don't really need to worry about it.
It just works. And, it works the same way to a large degree as their other apps work, except obviously, there's no phone numbers and things like that. Very cryptographically sound and, but trying always not to bubble it up. And I think that's, so it's actually a really simple mission, but it's obviously really hard.
And that requires a lot of smart people, but luckily our users in a good way, don't need to be very smart about that.
Keet vs Nostr
Knut: Yeah, a quick one there. No strings attached starts with the letters Nostr, so is, Keet and Nostr, do they go mix well together or, is there an integration there between the two? I see a lot of similarities here.
Paolo: I tried to explain the differences between Kit and Nostr. I think Nostr is a very interesting protocol, but also is very, simple. the way I like to describe it is that, if you are familiar with the history of filesharing, Starting from the first one, super centralized, and then eventually every single step, you get to a decentralized platform.
And the last one, the most decentralized one, that is BitTorrent. the history of file sharing proved that every time you try to centralize something, it ends up badly, right? if you have any special node in the system that does a little bit more than others and requires more resources than others to run, that will end up badly.
You might end up in a small room with a lamp in your room. Point it to your face, and then everyone suddenly will stop running an indexer. That reminds me about Nostr structure. if you are building a peer to peer system, or if you are building a very resilient communication system, if you think about Nostr, you would imagine that if you have, 10 million or 100 million users, the number of relays would be probably less than the square root of the number of users.
So that surface, although a hundred million users is very, they're not attackable, right? But the surface of, the relays is much more attackable. look at what is happening with, the coin joinin platforms, right? very similar. the beauty of KIT versus Nostr is that in KIT you have number of relays is actually equal to the number of users because the users are their own relays.
and they can act as relays for others to, further their connectivity. That is how we think a technology that, has to be ready for the apocalypse and resilient to the wrath of God should, work. if you have, a log number of users or square root of number of users as relates, I don't think it's cool technology.
It will work better than centralized, Technologies like WhatsApp and so on, or Twitter, but eventually will not work when you will need it the most. Because the point is that we will not know what will happen when we will need this technology the most. Today, not for everyone, but the world is still almost at peace.
Things might unfold, in the future, maybe sooner rather than later. But when things unfold, you will need the best technology, the one that is truly independent, the one that is truly peer to peer. it's not really peer to peer if you have specialized relays, but where you have super peers randomly.
Luke: Yeah, the difference here, between the Realize and not having any other centralized infrastructure in the picture is certainly an interesting distinction. I hadn't heard anything about that you can act as a next connector or something like that.
Pear Runtime
Luke: So there's a couple of related things. I know there was an announcement about the, pair runtime, is that right? can you talk a little bit about that or any other, ways that this is growing in your whole, platform,
Mathias: Yeah, sure. so basically when we talk about ideas, internally, also from our software background, We want to solve a small problem that then can solve it for everybody. So
We want to build technology that can just send data around efficiently, so you can build any kind of app on top. We're all about modularity and taking these things to the extreme so we can repurpose it into any kind of application and other people can, get value out of it.
And, that's been our mission from the get go. So basically, like Paolo said, when we built Keed. We took all of these primitives we have, it's all open source on our GitHub, that can do various things, relay encrypted data in a way that's completely private, nobody can read it, and in a generalizable way, so it can run on any applications.
We have databases that can interpret, work with this data on device, but still in a way where nobody else knows what's going on, fully private, and we spent many years perfecting this, and it's still ongoing. And we, similar to like connectivity, it might seem really easy if you don't know what's going on that, connecting this computer to another computer and another place, but it's really hard because ISPs and, your internet providers, et cetera, they don't really want you to do that.
So there's a lot of firewalls involved that you have to work around to get around This is all really, hard problems that took a long time to solve.
But luckily, all of these are like generalizable problems where you just solve them once to a large degree, and then it's solved for everybody. If you put them in a modular framework where anybody can put the Legos together on top. And that's what we've been heavily invested in. And then as we were building Keed, we realized that Keete is just like 95 percent of these Lego blocks that are applicable for anything.
So why not take all this stuff, pack it up for free, we don't make any money on it. and an open source runtime that we're just giving away so other people can contribute to it, but also build their own apps. the more peer to peer apps the world has, the better from my point of view.
and document it and make it really easy to install. And I think actually Paolo said something interesting because as soon as you have, one point of centralization, you can always unravel it. coming from the Bitcoin days, I remember how quickly things can unravel. people went to jail for linking to things because authorities, when they crack down, really hard.
so if you have one weak spot, it will be taken advantage of at some point by somebody. And so even things like distributing updates to your software can be really hard because this often requires a central point, like you go to a website and you don't download it. And so all apps built on our runtime, for example.
It's distributed through the runtime, which is a little bit mind bending. So all apps are peer to peer data applications themselves, and the network doesn't care, which means that we can continue to distribute updates even, if everything gets shut down, you only need like a bootstrap for the first install when you get the app.
So we're thinking that in. At every level, because it's really, important to us to, basically learn from everything that happened in the past and then actually build things that are resilient. And we take this to a degree where I'm sure we could move 10 times faster if we just let go a little bit of that idea, because it is easier to just put all the data in one place or put all the updates in one place.
But then it's then we're just building the same old thing that's going to die eventually anyway. So we're very, uncompromising in that mission of actually decentralizing everything from updates to data, and then also always solving in a way where everybody can take advantage of that.
And then the final thing I'll say about that is that, every time we update. That runtime, those building blocks of that runtime, every time we fix a bug, every time we make it faster, every app becomes faster. That's also very exciting. It's because you're building the whole infrastructure into this layer that runs on your phone.
And it's all somewhat generalizable. Every time we fix something, it's just better for the entire ecosystem. And that's obviously really, exciting. And like I said, actually, no strings attached.
Yeah, so I think you were referring to the trial of the Pirate Bay people there In Sweden, right? lucky enough to meet a couple of them in Denmark and it's been very fun to hear about their journey and, yeah, like
Knut: and there, there's, there was a great documentary made about it called TPBAFK. So the Pirate Bay Away From Keyboard, about that whole trial and how, corrupt the system was even back then. And, throwing people in jail for providing links. they didn't do any more wrong than Google did, from a certain perspective.
And, I remember even, before BitTorrents, there was a program called. DC or Direct Connect Do you remember that?
Mathias: I used to, it was one of my first introductions to decentralization. it as you just shared your, like a Google Drive for everyone or something. Like you just shared parts of your file tree to everyone who wanted to peek into it, Yeah, anyway. Oh, that's good that you didn't know you were going with that. it interesting what you said, because I think it's interesting to think that I think to a large degree, the whole decentralization movement that was happening with BitTorrent back in the day got shut down because At some point, authorities figured out that they could just block DNS requests to shut it down for normal people, and as soon as they did that, it was actually effective.
And to Paolo's point, no matter how weak it is, they're done. and they tried to kill the technology elsewhere, but that's actually what killed them. Then, obviously, alternatives came that people could pay for, and it also shows that people actually want, to stay on the right side of things.
I think, now it's going very much in the wrong direction again, because now we're back at abusing that centralization again. the cycle will repeat. But, yeah, like any point of weakness will be attacked at any point.
Decentralization vs. Centralization
Luke: So what are the drawbacks to decentralization? I think we and our audience certainly understand the benefit of decentralization, what you gain by decentralizing, but what do you naturally give up in terms of the user experience and the convenience factor?
Mathias: yeah, I'm sure Paola has stuff to say here, but I'm just, I love talking about this stuff, so I'll go first. Mattias.
I think it's a really interesting question, first of all, because it's one of those questions where You know, obviously I want to say there's no drawbacks, but like anything, it's a balance, right?
Because it's not that there's drawbacks and advantages, there obviously is, but it's also just a different paradigm. first of all, with sensitization, I think one of the biggest thing I noticed also with developers is that we all come out of systems, education systems. That teaches how to think centralized, which makes us biased towards centralized solutions.
and that's, I remember my whole curriculum was about servers and clients and stuff like that. it's actually really hard to think about decentralization as a developer. And I think that's actually part of why a lot of people think it's hard. It's complex because it is complex, but also because we're just like, we've been trained massively in the other direction, and it's really hard to go back because decentralization can be as simple as what Knut said about DC Connect, DC where it's just, oh, I'm just browsing other people's computers.
That's amazing. That's a really, simple experience, and it's like something you can never do But like in today's world, people, the first thing I always get asked is like, how do I get a username? And I'm like, usernames have an inherent centralization and there's trade offs there.
And we need to think that through and stuff. and most applications don't necessarily require usernames. I'm not saying that's a bad feature, but it's that's where you need to think more about the trade offs because there's governance involved to some degree. But for the core experience, and I think that's what we've shown in Keith so far.
Then, there's obviously tons of upsides also, it's much easier to do big data transfers. Money is less of a concern, which actually changes the thinking, how you think about features.
And that, again, is something we've been trained in a lot as developers, because we think centralized. When we talk about features at Holepunch, hey, we should add podcast recording to Keed. Normally somebody would say, that's going to cost a lot of money to host that data. And we just always we don't even have that discussion because it doesn't matter because it's just between the users.
And then it's more about like the UX. But then other simple, like I said, other simple discussions, let's add a username index. That's where we're like, okay, let's think that through because there's like various things to think about there because there's no centric governance, and we don't want to introduce that because again, one point is.
It's bad. so it's, more like you really need to think differently and it's really hard to wire your brain to think differently. but once you get past that point, I think it's, super interesting. And I, think actually developers care way more than normal people because, developers care a lot about how links look and links and structure and that.
And normal people are just used to just clicking buttons and apps and going with the flow on that. And that's also what we're seeing, I think, with, a lot of key
Paolo: I think the hiring has proven a little bit more challenging, as Matthias was saying, when you are told that the cloud is your friend, hosting, on, Google Cloud or AWS is the right thing to do. And, of course, it got cheaper and cheaper, so now everyone can host their websites.
But the reality is that 70 percent of, the entire internet knowledge is hosted in the data centers of three companies. developers should think about that, should think about the fact that internet was born to be point to point and peer to peer. And, we are very far away from that initial concept.
over the years, especially with the boom in, in the year 2000 for the internet boom, and bubble, then, realized that, holding people's data is the way to go, with social media and social network. That is even worse. And so you have these friendly advertisements that are telling you, That, with a smiley face that, you know, yeah, you should, upload all your data on, Apple cloud or Google cloud.
And in general, cloud backups are great, right? You want to have some sort of redundancy in your life, but the reality is that you should be able to upload those. In an encrypted way, and yet most of this data sits unencrypted because, the big tech companies have to decrypt it and use it for, to milk the information to pay for, for, another month of their new data centers.
the, issue is, we have so much power in our hands through our phones. the phones that we have today are much more powerful than the phones that we, or even the computers that we have 10 years ago or 5 years ago. And so We should, we are at a stage where we can use this hardware, not only for communicating, but also for in the future for AI processing and inference and so on.
is, we need to, understand that the word cannot be connected to Google. I mean we cannot be a function of Google. We cannot be a function of AWS. And so I think that, there is, escalating pace of, towards centralization and it's almost a black hole.
And eventually, the, we'll attract all the lights and if we are too close to it, no lights will come out anymore. And, that's why we want to really to double down on this technology, because it's not going to be easy, right? It's going to be very challenging, and most of the people don't care, as Maite has said before.
Most of the people will think, everything works with WhatsApp and, Signal, but Signal announced that their 2023 costs for data centers and data center costs are around 50 million, and they, apart from the mobile coin that was not The best thing that they could do, there is, it's not easy for them to monetize.
And the problem is that if you are, you're basically almost the only way to monetize it is to sell your customer's data. So if you don't want to sell your customer data, eventually your service will not be sustainable. So the only way to make it sustainable is actually going back to peer, where you can leverage people, infrastructure, people, connectivity, people, phones, people, processing power, Deliver very high quality communication system.
And when they will care, it will be probably usually too late if nothing exists yet. when people will care is because shit is hitting the fan. And, you really want to have a solution that is not, that will survive if, the countries around you or around the country where you live are not going to be nice to your own country.
So that's the view to peer-to-peer. The peer-to-peer wheel system will keep working if your neighbor countries are not going to be nice towards you. That's independence, that's resiliency, those are terms that, we need to take very seriously, especially seeing where the, world is going to.
Knut: Yeah, I think we're all primed for, centralized solutions, from a very young age. this is the state, this is what it is like, state funded schooling. state funders or state subsidized media. We are, like brainwashed into, trusting, institutions all our lives.
So I think that is somewhat connected to why people are so reluctant to be vigilant about this on the internet. I think the two go hand in hand that we, take the comfortable way, or most people take the comfortable route of, not taking responsibility for their own stuff. not only on the internet, but outsourcing responsibility to the government is basically the, another side of the same coin, right?
Mathias: I also find it very interesting, especially being from a small country like Denmark that doesn't have a lot of homegrown infrastructure. And I'm just seeing how much communication with some of the public entities is happening through centralized platforms like Facebook and things like that, where even though we centralize it, we also centralize it in companies that we don't even have any control over in different countries where we probably have, no rights at all.
So it's like hyper centralization, especially from the weakest point of view. And I think that's super problematic. And I'm always. Thinking it's, weird that we're not talking about that more especially when you look at the things that they're trying to do in the EU, they're almost trying to just push more in that direction, which I find even more interesting.
yeah, definitely. it's, a huge problem and it's only getting bigger. And that's, why
Challenges and Future of Decentralization
Luke: So to what level can decentralization actually get there? What is the limit to decentralization? And I'll calibrate this with an example. The internet itself, you said it was built to essentially originally be decentralized, but we don't have it. For physical links, like individual physical links between each other, the fiber or whatever the wire is goes together into another group of wires, which eventually go into some backbone, which is operated by a company.
And then that goes into the global Internet. And so somewhere it centralizes into telecom companies and other services. It might be decentralized on one level, but there is a layer of centralized services that make the internet work that isn't necessarily the so called cloud providers and that sort of thing.
So is there a limitation to how far this can go?
Paolo: I think the, in general, sure, there are the ISPs and, their physical infrastructure is in part centralized, but also you start having redundancy, right? So for example, the backbones are redundant. There are multiple companies running, cross connects across different areas of the world.
Now you have Starlink if you want. that is a great way to start decentralizing connectivity because Starlink will not be the only one that will run satellites, so there will be multiple companies that will allow you to connect through satellites, plus you have normal cabling.
So you will have, it will become a huge mesh network, it's already in part, but it will become more and more a huge mesh network. in general, you will always find a way, even with a pigeon, to start sending bits out of your house.
I think the most important part is, you have to be in control of your own data, and then, you need to send this data with the shortest path to the people that you want to talk to. Right now, I usually make this example, because I think it's When we do this presentation, we try to make people think about how much waste also centralized systems have created.
imagine you live in Rome, you live in Rome and you have your family. Most people live nearby their families. That is a classic thing among humans. 90 percent of the people live nearby their families. Maybe nearby, like 10km, 50km nearby. If you talk to your family, every single message, every single photo that you will send to your family, that message will travel, instead of going 50 kilometers in a nearby town where your mother lives or your father lives, it will travel every single message, every single bit of every single video call or every single bit of every photo will travel 5, 000 miles to Frankfurt just to go back 50 kilometers from you.
Imagine how much government spent in order to create these internet lines and to empower them to make it bigger, more, with more capacity Peer to peer allows with a lower latency, allows to save on bandwidth, allows to save on cost of global infrastructure.
So that's how, actually, We can create better mesh networks, more resilient mesh networks, just because data will always find the shortest path from one point to another.
And still all roads lead to Rome. I'm Italian, so I need to use Rome as an example.
Knut: Yeah.
Mathias: I think the discussion here is really interesting compared to Bitcoin, because it's actually the scaling longer term. Sovereignty, like how, Bitcoin kind of told us very direct terms that if you have a key pair, you have your money.
And it doesn't matter where you are in the world. If you have that key pair, you have a way to get to that money. the means of transportation, it's actually very uninteresting in that sense, because you have it with you. The Internet today, the centralized Internet is designed in a way where, what does it mean to go to Facebook?
it's really hard to explain because it's like some certificate that issued by somebody, and there's. Some, cabal of companies that manages them, there's some regulations around it, but we don't really actually understand it that well as normal people. Technically, we can understand it, but it's very, centralized and it's very, opaque and it's built into the infrastructure in that way, in a bad way.
And, with Pure Technology, we're taking the same approach as Bitcoin here and saying, You're just a key pair, and the other person is just a key pair, and there's a bunch of protocols around that, but the transportation is actually not that interesting. Right now, we use the internet to do it.
We'll probably do that for a long time, but there's no reason why we can take the same technology we have right now and in 50 years run it on, laser beams or something else, because we're taking the software and feedback.
Bitcoin and Holepunch: Drawing Parallels
Mathias: I think, that's the main thing to think about in that. Discussion.
Luke: when, Paolo, when you were talking about that people don't care, when you were saying that people don't care because WhatsApp just works, I was at the same time thinking that's the parallel of people saying that, I don't care because Visa just works, right? And so the parallel between Bitcoin and what you're doing at Holepunch, Keet, everything else here, really seems to be tracking along the same line.
And I guess there's the connection that, I won't say all, but a lot of the people involved are already in the Bitcoin ecosystem. But can you comment on is there a little more of a connection there between Holepunch and Keet and Bitcoin?
Paolo: Yeah, Bitcoin definitely is working and servicing, I think, in a good way, many, people in communities. The users of Bitcoin today are, unfortunately, and also that relates to Tether, mostly, in the Western world, in the richer countries, as a way to save wealth and, as a store of value, more than a means of exchange.
For different reasons, right? We'd like a network that would improve, of course, over time, and there will be different approaches, but, still, the world is not yet using Bitcoin, but the world will use Bitcoin when shit will hit the fan. but the beauty of Bitcoin is that an option is already there, is available, and when something bad will happen, people immediately, with a snap of a finger, will turn to Bitcoin, and will have it and can use it. don't have that in communications. What is our communica our parallel with communications, if we don't have it? I don't know, because if, if suddenly centralized communications will, be blocked, then, or privacy in communications will be blocked, and you cannot, you cannot use Whatsapp, or Whatsapp has to start giving all the information to every single government.
and the government will become more evil than what they are today, also western governments then. don't, we wanted to build the exact parallel as we said it, we just tried to describe it, that with Bitcoin, for communications. We need to have something that, since there are so many alternatives that are working as with your, you can make the parallel with Visa, right?
Visa is working today, so people are still using a lot of Visa, but if something will happen, they will use Bitcoin from one day to another. Whatsapp is working, and Zoom is working, and Google Meet is working, so people don't feel the urge, but there will be a trigger point when people will feel the urge at some point in their lives, because something happened around them, and we need to make sure that kit will be available to them.
and will be an option, will be stable, will be well designed so that when they will need it the most that option will be available to them.
Luke: Yeah, fantastic.
The Future of Decentralized Communication
Luke: And so I think the follow up I have, and just to get back to the earlier discussion a little bit with Nostr, the communication in terms of messaging, I absolutely see that and directly in what Keet is, I already absolutely see that. Is there a goal to get somewhere towards more like Social media, social networking, things like that in a, in certainly a decentralized way, but right now there isn't something like that as I understand it, coming from, Keet.
So is, that a goal? Is that on the roadmap?
Paolo: Yeah, it is on the roadmap, it's something that, so we had to start with the thing that we thought was more urgent and also the thing that could have been, would have been a game changer. social media is very important, especially In difficult situation, you want to get news, and you want to get unbiased news, so you want to use, social networks to see what's happening in the world.
But we, think that the most sacrosanct thing that you need in your life is to be able to talk to your family and friends in any situation with the highest privacy possible. that's the first thing that we tackled, and also was a way to battle test the technology with, KIT you can do high quality video calls as well, so if we are able to tackle in the best way possible privacy and extreme scalability of peer to peer communications, then on top of that foundation we can build also social media and every single other application that we have in mind.
Mathias: But first, we wanted to tackle the hardest problem. No, I think it makes a lot of sense. And I also just want to say, as a, probably like one of the most prolific KEET users, I use KEET right now also as a very, like a social media, we have big public rooms where we talk about KEET and talk about technology. I get a lot of the value I would get otherwise on Twitter X from that because I, it's like a public platform for me to, get ideas out there, but also interact with users directly.
And I think, there's many ways to take them as a young app. And we're talking about this a lot, obviously it has to be simple, has to be parent approved. My parents can figure it out, but I think, to a large degree, all really healthy social networks that are actually, to some degree, a communication app.
And it's also just a really good way to get local news and to get this locality that Peter is good at. That doesn't mean that we might not also make other things, but I think it's a hard line to set the difference between a social network and a communications app when it's structured correctly,
Interoperability and User Experience
Luke: Yeah, and this, another thing that came to mind just as, you were talking about these parallels, as, I understand it, the account system with Keet is, essentially still just a, Key pair. Correct me if I'm, wrong,
Mathias: Very, true.
Luke: you backups with the same 1224 words.
Is, that fully interoperable as well? Is that, could be your Bitcoin key. That could be
Mathias: We use the, same, I can't remember the date, the BIP, but there's a BIP for like during key generation. So we can use it also in the future for other things. and you have those words, you have your account, and that's, we never store that. And that's like your sovereignty and, no, I was just going to say that lets you use it seamlessly on different devices also. It's one of those things that I love because I know what's going on when you use keyed Insanely hard problem, but it's solved by the runtime, and it just works seamlessly and I think that's, the beauty of it.
Paolo: I think there's some UX stuff to figure out about onboarding that stuff a little bit easier for normal people. That's probably to a large degree the same for Bitcoin. The other part that I would do with Bitcoin is that, with Bitcoin, with your 12, 24 words, you can access your private wealth. the beauty of Bitcoin is that you can remember 12 24 words, you cross borders, and you carry with you your wealth. You can do the same thing with your digital private life.
You remember 12 24 words, they could be the same by the way. whatever happens, you can spawn back your digital private life fully encrypted from, one of your other devices that you connected that is somewhere else in the world. So when you start seeing and understanding the unlock in terms of also human resilience that this creates is very, insane and can create a very powerful, that can be used for, to create a very, powerful applications, not just communications, but you can build.
Really any sort of interaction, even mapping. Imagine peer to peer mapping, where basically data is not stored in one single location. You can access, tiles of the maps, from, local people that curate them in a better way. So the, level of applications that you can build, All unlocked by the same technology that is being used by Bitcoin is very, incredible.
Luke: Yes, absolutely it is. And what do you think of the idea that all of this stuff is just interoperable now based on essentially you have your private key and there you go. It doesn't matter the technology stack. Is that sort of an agnostic thing where you can take your data to any one of these systems?
What you're building with Keith being one, Nostr being another, Bitcoin being a third, what do you think of that?
Paolo: Yeah, the fact that, data is yours, right? So you should do whatever you want with your data. That is, I think, an axiom that we should assume. And, it shouldn't even, we shouldn't even discuss about this, right? We are discussing about it because people are trying to take away this axiom from us.
The, you are a key pair, and you're basically, unique, and uniqueness is expressed by the cryptography around those 24 words, and that's, that also is a way to prove your identity, it's a mathematical way to prove your identity.
No one can steal that from you, of course, but no one can track it as no one can impersonate, should not be able to impersonate you. So it's truly powerful.
Mathias: also think it's like worth remembering here also in this discussion that a lot of very high valuable data for yourself is actually not that big, but centralized platforms take it hostage anyway. if you take all my chat history and, I have pictures, but like a couple of the pictures would probably be bigger than all my chat history ever.
but a lot of that, those messages have a lot of value for me, especially personally and also being able to search through it and have infinite history, it's very valuable for me personally. But it's very scary for me if that's on some other platform where it gets leaked at some point, et cetera, et cetera.
But we already have the devices, just normal consumer devices that we buy, that we all have, phones, computers, whatever, that have more than enough capacity to store multiple copies of this. In terms of like per user, data production, it's a manageable problem.
And I think it's interesting how, providers force us to think in terms of giving that data away, even though we could easily store it.
Paolo: And this is even more important when we think about potential, AI applications, right? So imagine your best assistant. Paolo's assistant should go through all my emails, my kids chats, my old social stuff, and be able to be my best assistant. But in order to do that, I have two options.
Either, I imagine that OpenAI would come with an assistant. They would upload, All the information on their servers, crunch that information, and then, use it to serve, me, but also service their own needs. And that can become very scary, also because they wear a hat. It's public, right?
you don't want your most intimate codes that your best personal assistant could know, to be on somewhere else, rather than your devices. And so people were, people never uploaded, at least most of the people would never upload medical, information on Facebook, right? But they are uploading it on ChatGPT to get a second opinion.
so things can be, get even scarier than what we described today because, we, discussed about social media, that is basically, the fun part where we upload photos, But, things can become scarier when it comes to privacy and data control with ai.
So I want to see a future where I have a local AI that can read all key messages that I have from my local phone on my local device, and can become the best powers assistant possible without renouncing to my privacy, and also still governed by the same 24 words. the fine tuning that is applied on that LLM should stay local to my own device, and it should be in control of that.
And still, the current power of the devices that we have makes it possible. We should not fall for the same lie. We don't need, of course, big data centers with GPUs are important for training a huge LLM, but that is a generic LLM. You can take that one and then fine tune it with your own data and run it by yourself.
And for most of it, unless you want to do crazy things, that is more than enough and can run on modern GPUs or local GPUs or your phones. We should start thinking that we can build local experiences without having an API all the time connected to someone else's data center.
Knut: Yeah.
The Role of Tether in the Crypto Ecosystem
Knut: It's super interesting. you briefly just briefly mentioned tether before and I think we need to get into this. what is it and how much of a maxi are you, Paolo?
And, what, made this thing happen? Can you give us the story here about Tether?
Tether's Origin and Evolution
Paolo: Tether started in 2014. I consider myself a maxi, but running Tether, you could say that, I'm a shit coiner. I don't mind, right? I like what I do, and I think I'm net positive, so it's okay. Tera was born in 2014 with a very simple idea. there were a few crypto exchanges in, 2014.
it was Bitfinex, Coinbase, Kraken, Bitstamp. OKCoin, there was BTCChina, and just a few others, right? Around 10 that were meaningful. The problem back then was to do, trading arbitrage, you sell Bitcoin on the exchange where the price is higher, you take the dollars. From that sale, you move the dollars on the exchange where the price is lower and rinse and repeat.
That is called arbitrage. It is a property of every single efficient financial system. And that also helps to keep the price of Bitcoin in line across different exchanges. But, that was very, hard in 2014. If you remember in 2013 was the first year that Bitcoin broke the 1, 000.
But on some exchanges the price was 1. 2, on others was 900. in order to arbitrage that price difference, you have to move dollars from one exchange to another and Bitcoin from one exchange to another. You can move Bitcoin from one exchange to another. 10 minutes, but dollars would take days, right?
International wires. And so of course the opportunity arbitrage was, fully gone by, the, time the wire was hitting the, receiving exchange. the reason why we created that was, USDT was simply to put the dollar on a blockchain so that we could have the same user experience that we had with bitcoin.
For the first two years, almost no exchange apart Bitfinex understood USDT. Then Poloniex in 2016 started to add the USDT across for against every single trading pair. There was the start of the ICO boom. 2017 was the peak of the ICO boom and, USDT reached 1 billion in market cap. Fast forward in 2020, we had around 10 billion in market cap, and then the bull run started, but also another important thing started, that was the pandemic.
USDT's Impact on Emerging Markets
Paolo: So the pandemic had a huge effect on many economies around the world, in all the economies around the world, but especially in emerging markets, developing countries.
Basically pandemic also killed entire economies. And so as a Bitcoin you would think, oh, all these people that are in countries like Argentina and Venezuela and Turkey and so on, they should use Bitcoin and they should, they should, only use Bitcoin because everything else is cheap.
So that is pretty much, the approach that we have as Bitcoiners that, I believe in. But the problem is that. Not everyone is ready, so not everyone has our time to understand Bitcoin. Not everyone has yet the full skill set to understand Bitcoin at this stage, at this moment in time.
we as Bitcoiners didn't build the best user experience in the world, right? So one of the best wallets for Bitcoin is still Electrum. That, is not necessarily nice and well done for and simple to be used for, a 70 year old lady. so we need to do a better job as Bitcoiners to build better user experiences we want Bitcoin to be more used around the world.
At the same time, 99 percent of the population knows, especially the ones that are living in high inflation areas, knows that there is the dollar that is usually Much better currency than what they hold in their hands. the US dollar is not, definitely not perfect. It's not the perfect fiat currency. but it's like the tale of the two friends running away from the lion, right?
you have, one friend tells to the other, Oh, the lion is gonna kill us. We have to run really fast. And one of the two friends says to the other, I just have to run faster than you, right? So the US dollar is the friend that is running faster, in a sense that is the one that is likely better than the others.
And so being better than the others is creating a sort of safety feeling among 5 billion people in the world that live in high inflation countries. And for those people that, they don't have yet the time, they didn't have the luck also, maybe, to understand Bitcoin, they are, in fact, using USDT.
If you live in Argentina, peso lost 98% against the US dollar in the last five years. The Turkish L lost 80% against the US dollar in, the last five years. So of course, Bitcoin would be better than the US dollar, but even already, if you hold the dollar, you are the king of the hill there, right?
So because it's, you are able to preserve your wealth much, better than almost anyone else in the region. I think, USDT is offering a temporary solution and is providing a service, a very good service to people that don't have alternatives and good alternatives and they are very, familiar with the U.
S. dollar already. so eventually, the hyperbitcoinization, I think it will happen. there is no way it won't happen. It's hard to pinpoint on a time when, that will happen. But it's all about the turning point. What the economy will look like in the next, 10, 20 years and what trigger point there will be for fiat currencies to blow up and become irrelevant.
Bitcoin as a Savings Account
Paolo: the way I see it is that it's likely that the U. S. dollar will stay around for a while, and people might still want to use, the U. S. dollar as a checking account, but they, should start to use, Bitcoin as their savings account, in the checking account, you, are happy to not make interest, It's something that you use for payments, it's something that you are okay to detach from because it's the money that you are ready to spend.
The savings account is the thing that we should fight for. This thing is the thing that matter the most, and, it's the thing that will is protecting people wealth. And so in the long term. And in the medium term, we should push for this savings account to be Bitcoin. also with Tether, we are heavily investing in companies, in Bitcoin companies.
we support the Blockstream. We supported so many in the space that are, we, are supporting RGB. That is a protocol that is building, assets on top of, like network, style channels. Thank you for listening. and we buy Bitcoin ourselves. We do a lot of Bitcoin mining.
We develop, I think, the best and most sophisticated Bitcoin mining software, by the way, based on hole punch technology. It's like IoT for Bitcoiners and Bitcoin mining. It's very cool. we are relying on the dollar and, you could say that USDT is helping the dollar, expansion, but the same way I don't think Dollar and Bitcoin aren't necessarily opposed to one or the other.
I think that Bitcoin has its own path. And no matter what happens, there is no way to slow it down. I think, it's going to be inevitable success. It's going to be inevitable that it will become global internet money and global words money. No country will trust to each other with, with each other currencies for, for a longer time, and so the only viable solution is a currency that is governed by math.
That is the only objective way, objective thing that we have in the universe. that's my train of thoughts on, Tether and Bitcoin.
Knut: Oh, thank you. Thank you for that explanation. It explains a lot of things. To me, it sounds a bit like you're a lubrication company, like selling lubrication for the transition between the rape of the dollar to the love fest of the hyperbitcoinized world, to make the transition a little smoother.
Paolo: we are more than, at Tether we have also this educational arm and, believe it or not, the majority of the creation we do is actually on Bitcoin, right? So we are supporting the Plan B network led by the great Giacomo Zucco. The unfortunate thing is that USDT, didn't have a marketing team up to, 2022 with Tether.
So basically, I wish I could say that success of Tether is because we were super intelligent and great. but actually the success of Tether, unfortunately is a symptom of the success of, of, national economies. And it's sad if you think about it, right? So the success of your main product U as it is, They're actually proportional to the FACAP of many central banks. And, but it is what it is, right? So we need to do what we do at, really, at DataRace, creating all these educational contents to try to explain that, sure, we are providing a tool for today, but, For tomorrow you probably need, you need to understand that you have other options, you need to understand Bitcoin, because as we said for, Keith, right?
So the moment when you will need the most Bitcoin, it has to be available, you need to understand it, so that is a true option for you. The way we, see bitcoin education.
Knut: No, and, something like Tether would have, emerged, either way, and it's very comforting to know that it's run by Bitcoiners and not by a central bank itself or something. yeah, and the Plan B Network, I was a guest lecturer there in Logano and it was fantastic.
I love what you're doing there with the educational hub. And we even got Giacomo to write the foreword to our new book here that you can see here behind Luke.
Luke: Always say the title, Knut. Always say the title.
Knut: Bitcoin, the inverse of Clown World. It's, you, if, you're good at maths and emojis, you might be able to figure out the title from the cover, but it's one divided by Clown World anyway, which is on the opposite side of the everything divided by 21 million equation, So anyway, looking forward to seeing you in Lugano and giving you both a copy of the book, of course.
Paolo: Oh, with pleasure, with great pleasure, with a nice, education.
Luke: Absolutely. Yep.
Plan B Forum and Future Events
Luke: 100%. And we have to wind things down, but I'll just say as well, yeah, absolutely looking forward to Lugano Plan B Forum. Always a highlight of the year. It was my first time last year. I absolutely loved it. can't wait to attend this year.
so it's the 25th, 2020 6th of October, 2024. this year, it's a Bitcoin event that is not made to make money. So the problem with events is that. You have to find sponsors, and usually, sponsor might not be well aligned with the message you want to give, right? I think Tether is lucky enough, to not have to make money on the event.
Paolo: I want to have, good, guests. I want to have great speakers. I want to have the messaging. That is not only about Bitcoin, it's about, freedom of speech as well. We had the family of Assange for the last few years, and I think that they will come also this year.
I'm going to be probably killed by the By our marketing team, I'm not sure if they announced it, but we are going to have another Plan B event also in El Salvador next year, so we're trying to create this network of cities and countries that have things in common and, invite people that want to share knowledge around the world.
And, yeah, and of course we, are very proud of the good food that we, serve in Lugano. So that is another thing that, not all the bands can say the same thing.
Knut: No, it's fantastic. And we happened to bump into the Assange family at the cocktail bar in a fancy hotel and, had a very interesting conversation with them there. So if you're listening. Anyone from the Assange family is welcome on the show any time. So yeah, no looking forward to that event for sure, we had a great time.
And I think we're even playing this year, aren't we, Luke?
Paolo: You're
Luke: yeah, the Satoshi Rakamoto is in the event there, we, played, back in Prague, it was my first, time, but Knut is a regular at the Rakamotos.
Yeah, we played at Lugano last year Oh, anything and everything, what did we do in Prague?
Knut: paranoid and,
Paolo: Can I commission a
Knut: What song would you like to hear?
Paolo: I have two that I would suggest. One is Nothing Else Matters.
Knut: Alright.
Paolo: So I think that, is very inspiring, right?
Knut: Bitcoin, for sure.
Nothing Else Matters. it's perfectly aligned with Bitcoin. And, the other one is Sad But True. Oh, that would be fun. We'll squeeze in some Metallica there, won't we, Luke?
Mathias: we'll 100% have those songs ready to go. We also have, a big peer to peer track at the conference,
Knut: Yeah.
Mathias: not so much music, but yeah, that's peer to
Knut: Nothing else matters.
Luke: looking forward to that.
Knut: Sorry, brain fart. Sad but true is about the dollar still being around,
Paolo: Yeah, you can say that.
Luke: Okay.
Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks
Luke: Hey, we have to wind things down here because, we're, almost, out of time. So I'll just hand this, back to you both. Is there anything else you'd like to, mention about, your plans in the upcoming couple of years, in, key, toll, punch, anything like that?
Mathias: only that we're, like I said, we're integrating really hard right now, and it's a really fun time to, join the company because, we're small and efficient We get to work with Tether, which has a lot of benefits and it's getting really fast, so definitely check that out. And it's also a really fun time to join Keith in our public rooms.
There's a lot of very personal, in a good way, intense chats where you get to be part of the loop. I love to be part of those early communities and I would suggest everybody to check that out and go to the website and try it out.
Paolo: we will certainly do that. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So go check out Keith and Holepunch and the Plan B forum in Lugano, You could visit tether. io, that is, the website where we are trying to explain what we have in our minds between, finance, bitcoin mining, energy production, AI, communications, brain chips and stuff, right? I think it's more exciting.
Mathias: Just those things, that's all.
Paolo: Yeah, we can piss off more than this. Thanks.
Mathias: a
Luke: No, It's just perfect. and is on that note, is there anywhere else specific you'd like to direct our listeners?
Paolo: just follow the social channels and give us feedback on kit all the time because these technologies, needs everyone's help to be nailed them.
Mathias: We love technical feedback. We love UX feedback. We're trying to make something that works for the masses, so anything is good.
Luke: So that's, all at Keet. Is that correct? For Keet?
Mathias: Key. io and pairs. com for our runtime. It's all peer to peer.
Knut: Alright,
Mathias: Wonderful. And you're also still on the legacy social media platforms, right? Yeah.
Knut: we'll make sure to include links to your handles so people can find you there if they would like. forward to seeing you in Lugano.
Paolo: Likewise, I
Knut: But yeah, worth saying again.
Paolo: Thank you for having an invitation.
Luke: Yes, we'll wrap things up here. This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.
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